1 00:00:16,310 --> 00:00:12,890 what do you have 2 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:16,320 you know no this is Stan Friedman I'm a 3 00:00:21,349 --> 00:00:17,880 nuclear physicist with a very strong 4 00:00:25,609 --> 00:00:21,359 interest in flying saucers I'm in Kansas 5 00:00:28,670 --> 00:00:25,619 City Missouri on July 24th 19 6 00:00:31,790 --> 00:00:28,680 91. I'm here to do an interview with 7 00:00:34,069 --> 00:00:31,800 Gerald Anderson a very important witness 8 00:00:36,709 --> 00:00:34,079 with regard to the recovery of a crashed 9 00:00:37,910 --> 00:00:36,719 Flying Saucer in New Mexico in July 19 10 00:00:39,950 --> 00:00:37,920 seven 11 00:00:41,750 --> 00:00:39,960 we have just had a visit with a 12 00:00:44,270 --> 00:00:41,760 polygraph examiner 13 00:00:46,310 --> 00:00:44,280 who says he has seen no evidence of 14 00:00:48,770 --> 00:00:46,320 deceptions after spending several hours 15 00:00:49,850 --> 00:00:48,780 with myself and Gerald mostly with 16 00:00:52,310 --> 00:00:49,860 Gerald 17 00:00:54,830 --> 00:00:52,320 a full report will be forthcoming 18 00:01:06,350 --> 00:00:54,840 so with that we will talk to Gerald 19 00:01:10,670 --> 00:01:08,570 news take your name please my name is 20 00:01:15,230 --> 00:01:10,680 Gerald Anderson where were you born and 21 00:01:17,810 --> 00:01:15,240 when I was born October 4th 1941 in F 22 00:01:20,210 --> 00:01:17,820 okay and 23 00:01:23,270 --> 00:01:20,220 Give me a summary of what happened in 24 00:01:25,249 --> 00:01:23,280 1947 with regard to a crashed Flying 25 00:01:28,130 --> 00:01:25,259 Saucer in New Mexico well we had just 26 00:01:31,969 --> 00:01:28,140 moved to Albuquerque New Mexico 27 00:01:35,090 --> 00:01:31,979 on July 4th 1947. this was uh 28 00:01:38,390 --> 00:01:35,100 approximately the it was the day before 29 00:01:43,429 --> 00:01:40,370 we wanted the my uncle Ted 30 00:01:46,429 --> 00:01:43,439 my cousin Victor my father my brother 31 00:01:49,010 --> 00:01:46,439 Glenn and myself we drove down to the 32 00:01:51,710 --> 00:01:49,020 plains of San Augustine which is west of 33 00:01:53,270 --> 00:01:51,720 Socorro New Mexico and the Magnolia 34 00:01:55,969 --> 00:01:53,280 Dazzle 35 00:01:58,670 --> 00:01:55,979 down there looking for banded in Moss 36 00:02:01,310 --> 00:01:58,680 Agate which according to my uncle Ted 37 00:02:03,289 --> 00:02:01,320 and my cousin Victor was 38 00:02:04,490 --> 00:02:03,299 prevalent in the area and my brother 39 00:02:06,709 --> 00:02:04,500 being a 40 00:02:08,270 --> 00:02:06,719 an amateur rockhound and wanted to get 41 00:02:10,609 --> 00:02:08,280 some of this and it was a way of showing 42 00:02:11,930 --> 00:02:10,619 us around the area they had relatives 43 00:02:14,990 --> 00:02:11,940 down in 44 00:02:19,550 --> 00:02:15,000 Magdalena they wanted to introduce us to 45 00:02:21,530 --> 00:02:19,560 so we had gone down there and uh 46 00:02:25,490 --> 00:02:21,540 we got down in the horse Springs area 47 00:02:29,089 --> 00:02:25,500 and had driven off onto the plains down 48 00:02:36,530 --> 00:02:33,470 oh a mile or so and uh seemed like a 49 00:02:38,390 --> 00:02:36,540 long ways we parked the car got out of 50 00:02:40,729 --> 00:02:38,400 the car and walked down the Hillside and 51 00:02:42,410 --> 00:02:40,739 the semi 52 00:02:44,330 --> 00:02:42,420 forested I guess you could say it had 53 00:02:46,729 --> 00:02:44,340 pinion trees and scrub Oak and stuff 54 00:02:49,490 --> 00:02:46,739 like that and we'd walk to All That 55 00:02:53,449 --> 00:02:49,500 scrub over the Cedar and walk down the 56 00:02:55,850 --> 00:02:53,459 hillside into an Arroyo or dry wash and 57 00:02:58,250 --> 00:02:55,860 then walked South down to dry wash 58 00:02:59,210 --> 00:02:58,260 toward where the agates were supposed to 59 00:03:02,390 --> 00:02:59,220 be at 60 00:03:03,589 --> 00:03:02,400 and as we came around abandon the Arroyo 61 00:03:06,830 --> 00:03:03,599 that had 62 00:03:09,050 --> 00:03:06,840 an opinion and cedar trees growing on 63 00:03:12,110 --> 00:03:09,060 we were able to see farther ahead down 64 00:03:14,869 --> 00:03:12,120 the Arroyo and on the next Ridge line 65 00:03:16,309 --> 00:03:14,879 there was a large silver disc shape 66 00:03:18,470 --> 00:03:16,319 object 67 00:03:20,149 --> 00:03:18,480 was embedded in the side of the ridge 68 00:03:23,149 --> 00:03:20,159 line 69 00:03:25,729 --> 00:03:23,159 and Bree and wreckage and stuff strain 70 00:03:27,710 --> 00:03:25,739 about the area but mainly this thing was 71 00:03:30,290 --> 00:03:27,720 intact 72 00:03:32,869 --> 00:03:30,300 I would estimate in size from an adult 73 00:03:35,570 --> 00:03:32,879 perspective to be something 35 feet in 74 00:03:38,149 --> 00:03:35,580 diameter I've heard other other people 75 00:03:40,789 --> 00:03:38,159 who were there say they thought it was 76 00:03:43,970 --> 00:03:40,799 like 50 feet but as an adult I would say 77 00:03:46,430 --> 00:03:43,980 about 35 feet in diameter quite large 78 00:03:50,149 --> 00:03:46,440 when we got up to it 79 00:03:51,530 --> 00:03:50,159 there were four bodies there 80 00:03:54,410 --> 00:03:51,540 not human 81 00:03:55,369 --> 00:03:54,420 there was two of them who were obviously 82 00:03:58,250 --> 00:03:55,379 dead 83 00:04:00,830 --> 00:03:58,260 one of them was obviously very badly 84 00:04:03,289 --> 00:04:00,840 injured and one of them apparently a 85 00:04:04,910 --> 00:04:03,299 separate no ill effects or it didn't 86 00:04:08,809 --> 00:04:04,920 appear to be injured 87 00:04:12,050 --> 00:04:08,819 and was was ambulatory was mobile I was 88 00:04:14,570 --> 00:04:12,060 just sitting next to the one that uh was 89 00:04:16,250 --> 00:04:14,580 still alive were they right next to the 90 00:04:19,490 --> 00:04:16,260 vehicle right next to it right under the 91 00:04:22,129 --> 00:04:19,500 edge of it and this craft had apparently 92 00:04:23,270 --> 00:04:22,139 come in from the East bounced off one 93 00:04:26,689 --> 00:04:23,280 Ridge line 94 00:04:29,510 --> 00:04:26,699 went plowing through this Royal area and 95 00:04:32,689 --> 00:04:29,520 then crashed into the Ridgeline and 96 00:04:34,249 --> 00:04:32,699 embedded itself and they were sitting 97 00:04:35,629 --> 00:04:34,259 back under the edge it was kind of 98 00:04:39,230 --> 00:04:35,639 tilted up like this and they were 99 00:04:41,330 --> 00:04:39,240 sitting back under the edge here and I'm 100 00:04:44,090 --> 00:04:41,340 assuming that this one creature that was 101 00:04:46,969 --> 00:04:44,100 all right had laid this material on the 102 00:04:49,189 --> 00:04:46,979 ground but it looked like unrolled tin 103 00:04:51,950 --> 00:04:49,199 foil that these other three creatures 104 00:04:54,230 --> 00:04:51,960 were laying on like I was trying to 105 00:04:56,689 --> 00:04:54,240 like you do a person in shotgun put them 106 00:04:59,030 --> 00:04:56,699 on a blanket kind of a thing and 107 00:05:00,590 --> 00:04:59,040 apparently it had some boxes that are 108 00:05:03,530 --> 00:05:00,600 around it 109 00:05:05,390 --> 00:05:03,540 and had apparently been trying to give 110 00:05:08,090 --> 00:05:05,400 first aid or help these other creatures 111 00:05:10,010 --> 00:05:08,100 when we first got there and as we 112 00:05:12,469 --> 00:05:10,020 approached 113 00:05:14,150 --> 00:05:12,479 the creature Drew back like this like it 114 00:05:16,249 --> 00:05:14,160 was in fear of us like we were going to 115 00:05:18,110 --> 00:05:16,259 hurt it 116 00:05:19,670 --> 00:05:18,120 wasn't very long you know I'm trying to 117 00:05:23,210 --> 00:05:19,680 communicate with what the adults were 118 00:05:24,650 --> 00:05:23,220 and it seemed to calm down and just sat 119 00:05:26,990 --> 00:05:24,660 there and kind of looked back and forth 120 00:05:27,830 --> 00:05:27,000 watching him apparently trying to figure 121 00:05:29,930 --> 00:05:27,840 out 122 00:05:32,689 --> 00:05:29,940 what was going on like what did it look 123 00:05:35,150 --> 00:05:32,699 like a little bit more these creatures 124 00:05:38,150 --> 00:05:35,160 all of them were all about four foot 125 00:05:39,890 --> 00:05:38,160 tall or four and a half feet tall they 126 00:05:41,930 --> 00:05:39,900 had very large heads that were shaped 127 00:05:44,270 --> 00:05:41,940 larger on the top and they kind of 128 00:05:45,890 --> 00:05:44,280 tapered down not to a real sharp point 129 00:05:49,310 --> 00:05:45,900 but just tapered down to where they were 130 00:05:52,670 --> 00:05:49,320 thin and they had very large 131 00:05:55,670 --> 00:05:52,680 very large oval shape or almond shaped I 132 00:05:57,710 --> 00:05:55,680 guess you could say black eyes that had 133 00:05:59,689 --> 00:05:57,720 they were so shiny they had almost a 134 00:06:01,189 --> 00:05:59,699 bluish tint to them when the light 135 00:06:04,909 --> 00:06:01,199 reflected off of 136 00:06:10,909 --> 00:06:07,129 the best way I could describe that is 137 00:06:13,189 --> 00:06:10,919 kind of a bluish tinted milky white 138 00:06:14,210 --> 00:06:13,199 it was uh it looked like someone in 139 00:06:16,490 --> 00:06:14,220 shock 140 00:06:19,370 --> 00:06:16,500 and the ones that were laying on the 141 00:06:22,070 --> 00:06:19,380 ground were really really looked more 142 00:06:24,350 --> 00:06:22,080 that way more blue 143 00:06:27,290 --> 00:06:24,360 how about ears nose man no there was 144 00:06:29,210 --> 00:06:27,300 there was no visible ears on the 145 00:06:31,309 --> 00:06:29,220 creatures except like if you was just to 146 00:06:34,249 --> 00:06:31,319 cover your ear like this to whether it 147 00:06:37,129 --> 00:06:34,259 was just a riser and then a hole without 148 00:06:39,710 --> 00:06:37,139 you know your earlobe and the rest of 149 00:06:42,850 --> 00:06:39,720 the year there how about nose 150 00:06:46,010 --> 00:06:42,860 it was the nose was very very small 151 00:06:49,070 --> 00:06:46,020 almost imperceptible 152 00:06:50,870 --> 00:06:49,080 like two holes straight in and the lips 153 00:06:52,309 --> 00:06:50,880 were 154 00:06:54,890 --> 00:06:52,319 straight line 155 00:06:56,809 --> 00:06:54,900 it was like a cut and you couldn't see 156 00:07:00,129 --> 00:06:56,819 any visible lips like we had it was just 157 00:07:02,870 --> 00:07:00,139 a slit and whatever 158 00:07:05,870 --> 00:07:02,880 hair color there were there was no hair 159 00:07:08,029 --> 00:07:05,880 they were completely bald and no sound I 160 00:07:09,469 --> 00:07:08,039 never heard a sound one not out of any 161 00:07:12,710 --> 00:07:09,479 of the creatures including the one that 162 00:07:14,450 --> 00:07:12,720 was did you see fingers yeah they had 163 00:07:16,309 --> 00:07:14,460 they had fingers like this they didn't 164 00:07:19,490 --> 00:07:16,319 have a little finger they just had the 165 00:07:21,589 --> 00:07:19,500 thumb had three extra digits except the 166 00:07:23,390 --> 00:07:21,599 center digit was longer and the other 167 00:07:26,029 --> 00:07:23,400 two were about the same size they were 168 00:07:27,950 --> 00:07:26,039 very long and slender I looked very 169 00:07:29,870 --> 00:07:27,960 delicate and I've made the statement 170 00:07:31,309 --> 00:07:29,880 before and I'll make it again I think it 171 00:07:34,189 --> 00:07:31,319 would have made an excellent violence 172 00:07:37,969 --> 00:07:34,199 because of the the structure of their 173 00:07:39,770 --> 00:07:37,979 hands they were wearing one piece suits 174 00:07:42,230 --> 00:07:39,780 all of them were dressed exactly the 175 00:07:45,230 --> 00:07:42,240 same and it was sort of a real shiny 176 00:07:49,670 --> 00:07:45,240 silverish gray color no zippers buttons 177 00:07:51,830 --> 00:07:49,680 no I saw no zippers no buttons insignia 178 00:07:53,570 --> 00:07:51,840 no that's sickness the only thing that 179 00:07:54,950 --> 00:07:53,580 was different you know you know they all 180 00:07:57,650 --> 00:07:54,960 had this but the only thing that was 181 00:07:58,490 --> 00:07:57,660 different from the the Silvery gray 182 00:08:01,909 --> 00:07:58,500 thing 183 00:08:03,650 --> 00:08:01,919 suit was it down like the seam on it 184 00:08:05,570 --> 00:08:03,660 like it was a seam on the shoulder and 185 00:08:10,010 --> 00:08:05,580 around the car it was trimmed in what 186 00:08:12,830 --> 00:08:10,020 appeared to be maroon like Cordy uh 187 00:08:15,650 --> 00:08:12,840 then the suits for continuous for their 188 00:08:18,230 --> 00:08:15,660 foot gear you could see right about this 189 00:08:19,730 --> 00:08:18,240 area down it seemed to be less pliable 190 00:08:22,909 --> 00:08:19,740 than it was up here like this was a 191 00:08:24,890 --> 00:08:22,919 stiffer area like they were boots 192 00:08:28,550 --> 00:08:24,900 but they were all dressed exactly the 193 00:08:30,710 --> 00:08:28,560 same okay so you and your family are 194 00:08:32,449 --> 00:08:30,720 talking back and forth 195 00:08:34,370 --> 00:08:32,459 wondering what was going on what did 196 00:08:36,409 --> 00:08:34,380 your family say I mean well I don't say 197 00:08:39,170 --> 00:08:36,419 anything yeah my brother one of the 198 00:08:41,209 --> 00:08:39,180 first remarks I heard made was uh that's 199 00:08:43,790 --> 00:08:41,219 a goddamn spaceship 200 00:08:45,949 --> 00:08:43,800 uh you know there was bodies up there 201 00:08:49,190 --> 00:08:45,959 and you know I was told not to go up 202 00:08:51,050 --> 00:08:49,200 there which I did and uh how old was 203 00:08:54,410 --> 00:08:51,060 your brother at the time he was in his 204 00:08:56,630 --> 00:08:54,420 early 20s I think 20 21. he was a lot 205 00:08:58,250 --> 00:08:56,640 older than you were oh yes considerably 206 00:09:00,350 --> 00:08:58,260 uh 207 00:09:03,829 --> 00:09:00,360 we 208 00:09:06,170 --> 00:09:03,839 meandered off to one side this thing was 209 00:09:08,210 --> 00:09:06,180 cocked up and I was standing here the 210 00:09:09,769 --> 00:09:08,220 bodies were here and everybody else was 211 00:09:11,329 --> 00:09:09,779 kind of down here except my cousin 212 00:09:13,370 --> 00:09:11,339 Victor wasn't over here playing looking 213 00:09:16,070 --> 00:09:13,380 in his gaping all along the side of this 214 00:09:19,070 --> 00:09:16,080 this disc and it shaped just like a 215 00:09:20,930 --> 00:09:19,080 discus except for a round Dome was up on 216 00:09:22,670 --> 00:09:20,940 top and it was this big Gibbon gash and 217 00:09:26,150 --> 00:09:22,680 everybody could see inside it looked 218 00:09:29,990 --> 00:09:26,160 like a double Hall how big a length 219 00:09:34,910 --> 00:09:33,110 it covered the greater majority from the 220 00:09:38,150 --> 00:09:34,920 center of the crap out it was just like 221 00:09:40,070 --> 00:09:38,160 a gaping hole in there and I'm 222 00:09:42,230 --> 00:09:40,080 thinking you know it's like about 30 223 00:09:45,530 --> 00:09:42,240 feet 35 feet in diameter so we're 224 00:09:47,329 --> 00:09:45,540 talking about 17 feet maybe and most of 225 00:09:49,610 --> 00:09:47,339 most of that one side was ripped open 226 00:09:54,050 --> 00:09:49,620 like that and you can see inside 227 00:09:56,090 --> 00:09:54,060 and you can see another double Hull like 228 00:09:57,350 --> 00:09:56,100 in there and there was this rows of 229 00:09:59,509 --> 00:09:57,360 components 230 00:10:01,190 --> 00:09:59,519 that was on there and there was lights 231 00:10:02,930 --> 00:10:01,200 that flashed 232 00:10:05,210 --> 00:10:02,940 on off some of them were steady some 233 00:10:08,090 --> 00:10:05,220 were flashing there was a lot of debris 234 00:10:10,190 --> 00:10:08,100 and stuff hanging out of the hole 235 00:10:11,570 --> 00:10:10,200 there was evidence that there had 236 00:10:14,750 --> 00:10:11,580 apparently been fire it looked like it 237 00:10:16,970 --> 00:10:14,760 had been burnt along the edge there 238 00:10:18,350 --> 00:10:16,980 are the gas now this wasn't a gas that 239 00:10:20,030 --> 00:10:18,360 could have been caused by the thing 240 00:10:21,829 --> 00:10:20,040 coming into the ground 241 00:10:25,190 --> 00:10:21,839 it wasn't at the Leading Edge of the 242 00:10:27,110 --> 00:10:25,200 vehicle no no this was in the side like 243 00:10:29,570 --> 00:10:27,120 it almost appeared it was elliptical 244 00:10:31,970 --> 00:10:29,580 that it almost appeared as if something 245 00:10:34,250 --> 00:10:31,980 the same shape as 246 00:10:36,350 --> 00:10:34,260 the disc we were looking at had hit that 247 00:10:38,030 --> 00:10:36,360 that same you know it hit the disk and 248 00:10:40,009 --> 00:10:38,040 left an imprinted 249 00:10:42,110 --> 00:10:40,019 pretty closely approximated the outside 250 00:10:45,829 --> 00:10:42,120 diameter of the disc itself 251 00:10:49,250 --> 00:10:45,839 and it appeared to be caged inward 252 00:10:51,650 --> 00:10:49,260 okay and and kind of like you'd hit it 253 00:10:53,990 --> 00:10:51,660 like I said just crumpled and caved in 254 00:10:56,509 --> 00:10:54,000 and ripped it open 255 00:10:58,490 --> 00:10:56,519 um okay so you're you're there you you 256 00:11:01,069 --> 00:10:58,500 take all this and everybody's mystified 257 00:11:04,370 --> 00:11:01,079 what were the circumstances outside hot 258 00:11:06,650 --> 00:11:04,380 cold very very hot incredible to me 259 00:11:09,290 --> 00:11:06,660 being the first time in New Mexico and 260 00:11:11,269 --> 00:11:09,300 coming from Back East that dry heat was 261 00:11:14,150 --> 00:11:11,279 just like being outside 262 00:11:16,130 --> 00:11:14,160 of it it was unbelievable to me and 263 00:11:17,690 --> 00:11:16,140 indeed that was the odd part about this 264 00:11:19,550 --> 00:11:17,700 thing the closer you got to it the 265 00:11:22,370 --> 00:11:19,560 cooler it was 266 00:11:25,370 --> 00:11:22,380 and standing under it in the shade there 267 00:11:26,750 --> 00:11:25,380 next to these creatures bodies it was 268 00:11:30,050 --> 00:11:26,760 like 269 00:11:32,210 --> 00:11:30,060 a refrigerated air conditioning and did 270 00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:32,220 you feel air coming out of this thing no 271 00:11:36,290 --> 00:11:35,040 it was just like it was ambedia and I 272 00:11:38,389 --> 00:11:36,300 remember 273 00:11:39,949 --> 00:11:38,399 reaching up and putting my hand on the 274 00:11:41,750 --> 00:11:39,959 side of this and I think I was afraid it 275 00:11:43,610 --> 00:11:41,760 was going to hit my head because there 276 00:11:45,110 --> 00:11:43,620 was enough room for me as a small child 277 00:11:46,850 --> 00:11:45,120 you know 278 00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:46,860 I was approximately the same size as 279 00:11:50,990 --> 00:11:48,720 these creatures to to walk up under 280 00:11:52,670 --> 00:11:51,000 there and stand there but I I kind of 281 00:11:54,530 --> 00:11:52,680 did like that put my hand up against 282 00:11:56,690 --> 00:11:54,540 this thing what did it feeling it was 283 00:11:59,870 --> 00:11:56,700 ice cold it felt like it just came out 284 00:12:02,569 --> 00:11:59,880 of her freezer was it smooth was it 285 00:12:04,850 --> 00:12:02,579 was very smooth it had a very smooth 286 00:12:08,030 --> 00:12:04,860 texture to it was obviously made out of 287 00:12:09,889 --> 00:12:08,040 metal it was very solid and it was very 288 00:12:12,650 --> 00:12:09,899 cold ice cold 289 00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:12,660 and there was a smell in the area it 290 00:12:17,389 --> 00:12:14,880 smelled volatile 291 00:12:22,730 --> 00:12:17,399 acreage like 292 00:12:26,389 --> 00:12:24,650 but the closer you got to this thing the 293 00:12:28,370 --> 00:12:26,399 cooler it was so like you know I kind of 294 00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:28,380 remained there and I guess the wall they 295 00:12:34,970 --> 00:12:31,440 were over here my father and uh 296 00:12:36,590 --> 00:12:34,980 Ted and my brother and uncle Ted was 297 00:12:39,290 --> 00:12:36,600 trying to talk to this thing in Spanish 298 00:12:42,110 --> 00:12:39,300 and of course it didn't understand what 299 00:12:43,730 --> 00:12:42,120 he said and Dad tried to talk to him and 300 00:12:46,370 --> 00:12:43,740 they tried you know sign language and 301 00:12:50,870 --> 00:12:46,380 that didn't work and uh I don't know for 302 00:12:53,150 --> 00:12:50,880 some reason I just uh I reached out and 303 00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:53,160 touched it this one that was laying next 304 00:12:58,670 --> 00:12:57,410 next to touch that I realized you know 305 00:13:00,590 --> 00:12:58,680 jump back 306 00:13:02,569 --> 00:13:00,600 scared me and startled me because I 307 00:13:05,269 --> 00:13:02,579 suddenly realized that these weren't 308 00:13:07,129 --> 00:13:05,279 dolls I thought they were plastic dolls 309 00:13:10,009 --> 00:13:07,139 and I you know I was still in my mind 310 00:13:12,110 --> 00:13:10,019 these are moving dolls 311 00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:12,120 until I touched it and I realized you 312 00:13:17,150 --> 00:13:14,639 know this was a dead thing I'd been I'd 313 00:13:19,069 --> 00:13:17,160 seen dead relatives before I 314 00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:19,079 unfortunately it made a mistake one time 315 00:13:22,790 --> 00:13:21,120 touching him relative it was in a casket 316 00:13:26,509 --> 00:13:22,800 and I just knew 317 00:13:31,730 --> 00:13:26,519 this is a dead thing and it scared me 318 00:13:34,910 --> 00:13:33,170 this thing was sitting there on the 319 00:13:36,710 --> 00:13:34,920 ground and it kept look back and forth 320 00:13:39,290 --> 00:13:36,720 and it just had its hands like it says 321 00:13:42,110 --> 00:13:40,370 just between 322 00:13:45,110 --> 00:13:42,120 three of them and 323 00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:45,120 like it was trying to understand and all 324 00:13:49,129 --> 00:13:46,800 of a sudden it just turned and looked 325 00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:49,139 right straight at me but between my 326 00:13:56,210 --> 00:13:54,170 this is when 327 00:13:58,550 --> 00:13:56,220 it was just like an explosion of things 328 00:14:01,670 --> 00:13:58,560 in my hits things I started you know 329 00:14:05,210 --> 00:14:01,680 feeling just terrible depression and 330 00:14:10,009 --> 00:14:08,150 you know awful awful feelings it just 331 00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:10,019 suddenly burst into my mind and I don't 332 00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:10,800 know 333 00:14:14,990 --> 00:14:13,440 if that meant that it was communicating 334 00:14:16,670 --> 00:14:15,000 with me and I was the only one there I 335 00:14:20,269 --> 00:14:16,680 could communicate with because I was a 336 00:14:22,670 --> 00:14:20,279 kid I I don't know I turned and ran and 337 00:14:24,949 --> 00:14:22,680 I ran across the arroya and up on the 338 00:14:25,970 --> 00:14:24,959 area that had bounced off of during the 339 00:14:28,129 --> 00:14:25,980 crash 340 00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:28,139 and we're just standing or looking down 341 00:14:32,329 --> 00:14:30,720 at the scene you know 342 00:14:34,730 --> 00:14:32,339 you know family and 343 00:14:37,069 --> 00:14:34,740 off in a distance I could see cattle 344 00:14:40,189 --> 00:14:37,079 grazing I could see a wind 345 00:14:43,370 --> 00:14:40,199 you can see dust Trails out on the 346 00:14:45,829 --> 00:14:43,380 apply it out on the planes out there 347 00:14:47,870 --> 00:14:45,839 and uh oh I was there for a little while 348 00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:47,880 and then I it came back down and I guess 349 00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:50,160 we were there you know 350 00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:52,800 Victor was in when I got back down there 351 00:14:56,629 --> 00:14:55,260 Victor was up in the crack and Ted 352 00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:56,639 yelled at him to get out of there and 353 00:14:59,509 --> 00:14:58,079 Glenn went over and grabbed him by the 354 00:15:02,090 --> 00:14:59,519 belt and jury team that's your brother 355 00:15:03,410 --> 00:15:02,100 yeah and jerked him off and said get out 356 00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:03,420 of there you could cause this thing to 357 00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:05,100 explode and kill us all you know and of 358 00:15:10,310 --> 00:15:07,519 course he went prowling around 359 00:15:11,629 --> 00:15:10,320 uh I was kind of standing off to one 360 00:15:13,790 --> 00:15:11,639 side looking that's why I knew that 361 00:15:15,470 --> 00:15:13,800 there was I could look off these rocks 362 00:15:17,449 --> 00:15:15,480 that I was standing right into this 363 00:15:19,550 --> 00:15:17,459 thing that's why I knew you know about 364 00:15:21,650 --> 00:15:19,560 the lights and the components and stuff 365 00:15:23,389 --> 00:15:21,660 and then uh I know I heard other people 366 00:15:26,930 --> 00:15:23,399 talking I turned and there was a group 367 00:15:28,310 --> 00:15:26,940 of people coming up the arroya from out 368 00:15:29,930 --> 00:15:28,320 on the planes 369 00:15:31,430 --> 00:15:29,940 from the south they had come up there 370 00:15:35,210 --> 00:15:31,440 and of course they walked up and was 371 00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:35,220 talking and how many uh there was an 372 00:15:41,889 --> 00:15:39,120 older man and five younger students boys 373 00:15:44,810 --> 00:15:41,899 girls there's three boys and two girls 374 00:15:48,889 --> 00:15:44,820 and they were all you know introducing 375 00:15:50,990 --> 00:15:48,899 talking to my father and my uncle and my 376 00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:51,000 brother what'd the older one looked like 377 00:16:01,310 --> 00:15:59,990 he was wearing a pith helmet when he 378 00:16:02,629 --> 00:16:01,320 first came up one of those one of those 379 00:16:04,850 --> 00:16:02,639 four rounds 380 00:16:06,530 --> 00:16:04,860 helmets and uh he was bald and I know 381 00:16:07,850 --> 00:16:06,540 that because he had taken it off and he 382 00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:07,860 had done this you know a couple times 383 00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:09,600 with handkerchief and put it back on he 384 00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:11,040 was involving man 385 00:16:15,470 --> 00:16:13,920 and he had a round face he was very 386 00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:15,480 ready complected 387 00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:16,800 he's a big man 388 00:16:21,410 --> 00:16:18,600 uh 389 00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:21,420 and he apparently was a doctor because 390 00:16:25,550 --> 00:16:24,000 they kept calling him doctor as I 391 00:16:26,629 --> 00:16:25,560 understand it was an archaeological 392 00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:26,639 group 393 00:16:29,449 --> 00:16:28,560 it was out there on some kind of Summer 394 00:16:31,730 --> 00:16:29,459 thing 395 00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:31,740 and uh 396 00:16:37,550 --> 00:16:34,560 they they talked and he apparently was 397 00:16:40,009 --> 00:16:37,560 able to speak several foreign languages 398 00:16:41,870 --> 00:16:40,019 and he tried to talk to this creature 399 00:16:43,550 --> 00:16:41,880 several times in different languages and 400 00:16:45,290 --> 00:16:43,560 again to no avail 401 00:16:46,850 --> 00:16:45,300 how did that happen to be there had he 402 00:16:48,829 --> 00:16:46,860 seen the thing Well they claimed that 403 00:16:51,470 --> 00:16:48,839 they saw they said they saw this thing 404 00:16:54,050 --> 00:16:51,480 come down the night before a plane you 405 00:16:56,930 --> 00:16:54,060 know and they thought it was a meteorite 406 00:16:58,370 --> 00:16:56,940 and they had talked about well in the 407 00:17:00,050 --> 00:16:58,380 morning you know well we'll go over 408 00:17:01,069 --> 00:17:00,060 there and see this where this meteor 409 00:17:02,210 --> 00:17:01,079 came down because that's what they 410 00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:02,220 thought it was 411 00:17:05,870 --> 00:17:04,380 and when his son came up the next 412 00:17:07,970 --> 00:17:05,880 morning you know and they got about 413 00:17:09,949 --> 00:17:07,980 their business and got up and somebody 414 00:17:12,590 --> 00:17:09,959 looked over and said you know they saw 415 00:17:14,030 --> 00:17:12,600 the shiny metal and stuff across the 416 00:17:15,590 --> 00:17:14,040 plains there and they realized it wasn't 417 00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:15,600 the meteorites it may have been an 418 00:17:19,549 --> 00:17:18,000 airplane and that Christ so they all 419 00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:19,559 decided to go over there and see if 420 00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:21,540 there was anybody who was alive you know 421 00:17:24,829 --> 00:17:23,280 it was hurt that needed help they had 422 00:17:26,030 --> 00:17:24,839 driven on it no they walked over 423 00:17:28,510 --> 00:17:26,040 apparently 424 00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:28,520 the way I understand it 425 00:17:35,450 --> 00:17:32,400 uh and it's quite a ways across that 426 00:17:37,850 --> 00:17:35,460 plane so it had to take a very long time 427 00:17:39,289 --> 00:17:37,860 to do this or they may have had a 428 00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:39,299 vehicle I don't know that's an 429 00:17:44,450 --> 00:17:42,240 assumption I think on my part ner okay 430 00:17:46,909 --> 00:17:44,460 so they're around but they came across 431 00:17:48,650 --> 00:17:46,919 the the plains nonetheless I'm not sure 432 00:17:50,450 --> 00:17:48,660 if they drove or not I didn't hear any 433 00:17:51,230 --> 00:17:50,460 comments and then somebody else showed 434 00:17:54,529 --> 00:17:51,240 them 435 00:17:57,470 --> 00:17:54,539 yeah they were down there just oh 15 436 00:17:59,210 --> 00:17:57,480 maybe 20 minutes the tops you know and 437 00:18:02,690 --> 00:17:59,220 they were picking up things some of the 438 00:18:05,510 --> 00:18:02,700 students and this doctor Buskirk that 439 00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:05,520 they called in this one girl went up and 440 00:18:10,190 --> 00:18:08,640 said look doctor wouldn't this make a 441 00:18:13,310 --> 00:18:10,200 beautiful ring and she was holding what 442 00:18:15,529 --> 00:18:13,320 it looked like a red rod 443 00:18:16,750 --> 00:18:15,539 read too it's some kind of kind of a 444 00:18:19,730 --> 00:18:16,760 silvery red 445 00:18:21,470 --> 00:18:19,740 and he kind of snapped at her you know 446 00:18:22,789 --> 00:18:21,480 you know I put that down Agnes you don't 447 00:18:25,190 --> 00:18:22,799 know what that is I think it hurts you 448 00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:25,200 just don't pick this stuff up and she 449 00:18:29,150 --> 00:18:27,600 kind of said well yeah okay doctor and 450 00:18:30,529 --> 00:18:29,160 then he went back to what he was doing 451 00:18:31,490 --> 00:18:30,539 and she walked away and put it in her 452 00:18:33,529 --> 00:18:31,500 pocket 453 00:18:35,330 --> 00:18:33,539 and a lot of them were doing this we're 454 00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:35,340 picking up things and feeling things I 455 00:18:38,390 --> 00:18:37,200 was picking up things and feeling things 456 00:18:40,970 --> 00:18:38,400 it was 457 00:18:42,409 --> 00:18:40,980 all kinds of material metal and stuff 458 00:18:44,570 --> 00:18:42,419 laying around then we heard it I heard 459 00:18:46,190 --> 00:18:44,580 it well we all heard a sound of a motor 460 00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:46,200 coming on your truck 461 00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:48,720 and I went back up the the incline there 462 00:18:52,610 --> 00:18:51,120 to the to the Ridgeline and I could see 463 00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:52,620 out there and there was a truck coming 464 00:18:58,130 --> 00:18:55,200 up it was an old pickup truck 465 00:18:59,990 --> 00:18:58,140 it was sort of a a beige color or a tan 466 00:19:02,450 --> 00:19:00,000 colored thing it had a whip antenna on 467 00:19:05,150 --> 00:19:02,460 it and it stopped and this guy got out 468 00:19:07,850 --> 00:19:05,160 and he's wearing brown clothes he's got 469 00:19:10,130 --> 00:19:07,860 boots on and he's wearing a straw hat 470 00:19:13,549 --> 00:19:10,140 just like the kind Harry trumanized wore 471 00:19:15,710 --> 00:19:13,559 and had wire rim glasses he was a big 472 00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:15,720 man and he looked exactly like Harry 473 00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:17,520 Truman to me and now you know I'd seen 474 00:19:22,190 --> 00:19:19,919 in the movie tone news that the he was 475 00:19:23,930 --> 00:19:22,200 President's then yeah I was well aware 476 00:19:26,330 --> 00:19:23,940 who Harry Truman was so everybody was 477 00:19:28,130 --> 00:19:26,340 he's a kind of a hero you know and it's 478 00:19:29,930 --> 00:19:28,140 kind of looked like him except bigger 479 00:19:31,630 --> 00:19:29,940 bigger and I don't think he and he 480 00:19:35,930 --> 00:19:31,640 didn't look as old either 481 00:19:39,110 --> 00:19:35,940 his hair was uh kind of light gray 482 00:19:41,029 --> 00:19:39,120 and uh he walked over there and they got 483 00:19:43,730 --> 00:19:41,039 to talking you know he with everybody 484 00:19:45,289 --> 00:19:43,740 and he told them that he worked out on 485 00:19:47,810 --> 00:19:45,299 the planes out there and that he made 486 00:19:50,330 --> 00:19:47,820 masks and that he had seen 487 00:19:52,010 --> 00:19:50,340 the the wreckage from out there on the 488 00:19:53,570 --> 00:19:52,020 planes and he saw the people and he 489 00:19:55,310 --> 00:19:53,580 thought it was a plane wreck and you 490 00:19:56,750 --> 00:19:55,320 know just something was going on he came 491 00:19:59,510 --> 00:19:56,760 over there to see 492 00:20:02,750 --> 00:19:59,520 and he hadn't been there but just a very 493 00:20:05,990 --> 00:20:02,760 very few minutes when when he heard all 494 00:20:09,890 --> 00:20:06,000 kinds of motors and engine strain and 495 00:20:12,110 --> 00:20:09,900 stuff and uh here comes uh 496 00:20:14,150 --> 00:20:12,120 a military car with a big white star on 497 00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:14,160 the side of it followed by a six by 498 00:20:20,529 --> 00:20:18,720 which is a military truck with a canvas 499 00:20:22,730 --> 00:20:20,539 wagon 500 00:20:24,650 --> 00:20:22,740 canvas thing over and it's full of 501 00:20:26,990 --> 00:20:24,660 soldiers they've got guns 502 00:20:30,770 --> 00:20:27,000 and right behind that was what we call 503 00:20:33,529 --> 00:20:30,780 four by which is like a medium-sized 504 00:20:35,930 --> 00:20:33,539 Jeep truck situation and it had two big 505 00:20:37,610 --> 00:20:35,940 high whip antennas all kinds of radio 506 00:20:39,529 --> 00:20:37,620 gear in the back and a guy back there 507 00:20:41,870 --> 00:20:39,539 with earphones and stuff on it and he's 508 00:20:45,169 --> 00:20:41,880 you know working these radios and they 509 00:20:46,970 --> 00:20:45,179 all pulled up and stopped and which 510 00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:46,980 direction have they come from you they 511 00:20:51,590 --> 00:20:49,440 came from from the north from the horse 512 00:20:53,330 --> 00:20:51,600 Springs area right so they could have 513 00:20:54,830 --> 00:20:53,340 come off the highway there oh yeah I'm 514 00:20:56,090 --> 00:20:54,840 sure that's exactly how they got there 515 00:20:59,390 --> 00:20:56,100 they come off the highway the same way 516 00:21:03,049 --> 00:20:59,400 we did well in the meantime that when it 517 00:21:05,090 --> 00:21:03,059 stopped the this black soldier the 518 00:21:08,029 --> 00:21:05,100 sergeant and the reason I know he was a 519 00:21:10,970 --> 00:21:08,039 sergeant my brother told me he was and 520 00:21:13,730 --> 00:21:10,980 he got out of this uh this car 521 00:21:16,970 --> 00:21:13,740 and then a guy got out on the other side 522 00:21:18,529 --> 00:21:16,980 and he was Glenn said he was a it was a 523 00:21:19,549 --> 00:21:18,539 captain he told me later he was a 524 00:21:23,029 --> 00:21:19,559 captain 525 00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:23,039 and this guy had orange red hair 526 00:21:27,230 --> 00:21:25,200 and uh 527 00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:27,240 all the soldiers of them came running 528 00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:29,220 over there pointing guns at people and 529 00:21:34,970 --> 00:21:31,200 tell them get away get away get away you 530 00:21:35,930 --> 00:21:34,980 know and when this creature saw these 531 00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:35,940 people 532 00:21:40,730 --> 00:21:37,679 the military 533 00:21:42,770 --> 00:21:40,740 he went nuts he went into an absolute 534 00:21:43,690 --> 00:21:42,780 Panic worse than what he did when he saw 535 00:21:51,890 --> 00:21:43,700 us 536 00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:51,900 was like he was looking for him yeah 537 00:21:54,890 --> 00:21:53,520 like like he's looking for a place to 538 00:21:57,289 --> 00:21:54,900 run and hide 539 00:21:59,930 --> 00:21:57,299 but he never got up never got up he 540 00:22:04,669 --> 00:21:59,940 never left the one injured one next to 541 00:22:08,510 --> 00:22:04,679 him and uh this red-headed officer 542 00:22:11,090 --> 00:22:08,520 this guy was a real butthole uh he made 543 00:22:12,730 --> 00:22:11,100 all the threats he threatened to have 544 00:22:16,730 --> 00:22:12,740 people shot 545 00:22:18,770 --> 00:22:16,740 to everybody get away get away you know 546 00:22:20,510 --> 00:22:18,780 well get away from there this is a 547 00:22:22,970 --> 00:22:20,520 military secret you know just screaming 548 00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:22,980 and hollering and he told my my uncle 549 00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:25,440 and my father that if they didn't want 550 00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:26,640 to spend the rest of their life in 551 00:22:31,370 --> 00:22:29,520 prison they would never say anything 552 00:22:33,169 --> 00:22:31,380 about what they saw there if they ever 553 00:22:34,610 --> 00:22:33,179 wanted to see us kids again they'd take 554 00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:34,620 the kids away and you'd never see the 555 00:22:38,810 --> 00:22:36,000 kids you know 556 00:22:41,149 --> 00:22:38,820 and Victor that we'd better keep our 557 00:22:42,890 --> 00:22:41,159 mouth shut if we did not this is what 558 00:22:45,049 --> 00:22:42,900 was going to happen they were 559 00:22:47,110 --> 00:22:45,059 threatening people and pushing people 560 00:22:50,210 --> 00:22:47,120 and the students as well 561 00:22:51,770 --> 00:22:50,220 they were hustling everybody and one of 562 00:22:55,070 --> 00:22:51,780 the soldiers 563 00:22:56,450 --> 00:22:55,080 uh pushed my my uncle he had a rifle I 564 00:22:57,770 --> 00:22:56,460 guess he showed me back like that well 565 00:23:01,490 --> 00:22:57,780 that was something you don't do to my 566 00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:01,500 uncle Ted a Ted had a violent temper and 567 00:23:05,210 --> 00:23:03,000 he grabbed the rifle and reached over 568 00:23:06,289 --> 00:23:05,220 top and smacked this guy and dropped him 569 00:23:08,570 --> 00:23:06,299 right there 570 00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:08,580 Teddy drop if I didn't drop the Hat this 571 00:23:13,789 --> 00:23:10,799 guy's a cowboy he'll hit you in a minute 572 00:23:17,090 --> 00:23:13,799 and of course when he did that 573 00:23:19,130 --> 00:23:17,100 his bolts opened and I guess cocking you 574 00:23:21,950 --> 00:23:19,140 know they're cocking your rifles and 575 00:23:24,830 --> 00:23:21,960 they're pointing guns at people and 576 00:23:27,409 --> 00:23:24,840 everybody Buskirk and Glenn and Dad 577 00:23:28,789 --> 00:23:27,419 grabbing you know pulling back and got 578 00:23:30,049 --> 00:23:28,799 him away don't tell him man they're 579 00:23:31,310 --> 00:23:30,059 gonna shoot don't do that you know 580 00:23:33,409 --> 00:23:31,320 trying to 581 00:23:34,789 --> 00:23:33,419 I think we came very close to having 582 00:23:36,350 --> 00:23:34,799 someone shot 583 00:23:38,390 --> 00:23:36,360 uh 584 00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:38,400 then it really started threatening you 585 00:23:41,630 --> 00:23:40,140 know and maybe interviewed did the 586 00:23:44,029 --> 00:23:41,640 redhead do all the Talking pretty much 587 00:23:46,190 --> 00:23:44,039 too pretty much except once in a while 588 00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:46,200 the sergeant would would you know would 589 00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:48,960 chime in and make statements like that 590 00:23:53,270 --> 00:23:50,640 to other people in response to the 591 00:23:56,450 --> 00:23:53,280 Reddit mainly it was the redhead was 592 00:23:58,730 --> 00:23:56,460 there a name tag yes there was and uh 593 00:24:02,210 --> 00:23:58,740 his name was Armstrong 594 00:24:05,690 --> 00:24:02,220 I'm not sure if I know that from having 595 00:24:08,090 --> 00:24:05,700 read it or know that from remembering it 596 00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:08,100 now being able to read it 597 00:24:12,409 --> 00:24:10,320 in my memory or if someone said that to 598 00:24:14,149 --> 00:24:12,419 me but his name was Armstrong was right 599 00:24:16,730 --> 00:24:14,159 here on his uniform now they chased you 600 00:24:19,490 --> 00:24:16,740 guys away pretty quick 601 00:24:22,310 --> 00:24:19,500 yeah they did and uh they heard it as 602 00:24:23,930 --> 00:24:22,320 stuff like cattle and it moved us up the 603 00:24:26,750 --> 00:24:23,940 Aurora back in the direction we come 604 00:24:29,210 --> 00:24:26,760 from Over the protest of this Dr Buskirk 605 00:24:31,130 --> 00:24:29,220 who said no no we've got to go the other 606 00:24:34,270 --> 00:24:31,140 way we came from I don't care where you 607 00:24:38,450 --> 00:24:34,280 came from get your ass up the the Arroyo 608 00:24:40,250 --> 00:24:38,460 and they ran us up to your oil and uh so 609 00:24:42,289 --> 00:24:40,260 you'll get to your car then right now 610 00:24:44,210 --> 00:24:42,299 they take us up to Arroyo and just below 611 00:24:46,909 --> 00:24:44,220 the hill that we came down they broke us 612 00:24:49,370 --> 00:24:46,919 off and moved us up the hill now this 613 00:24:51,169 --> 00:24:49,380 whole time no one has ever frisked us 614 00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:51,179 down no one has ever checked our pockets 615 00:24:56,330 --> 00:24:52,559 to see if we picked up any of this 616 00:24:57,890 --> 00:24:56,340 material and this girl Agnes still has 617 00:24:59,870 --> 00:24:57,900 that stuff in her pocket and some of the 618 00:25:03,289 --> 00:24:59,880 other students had stuff 619 00:25:05,390 --> 00:25:03,299 uh to my knowledge up to that point they 620 00:25:07,370 --> 00:25:05,400 had not been searched whether they did 621 00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:07,380 so afterward I don't know they never 622 00:25:11,289 --> 00:25:10,080 searched us ever they run us back up the 623 00:25:14,750 --> 00:25:11,299 hill 624 00:25:16,490 --> 00:25:14,760 and when we got to where the car was 625 00:25:18,830 --> 00:25:16,500 parked where daddy parked the car up 626 00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:18,840 there there's a Jeep with a guy sitting 627 00:25:22,490 --> 00:25:20,460 in the back and there's a mounted 628 00:25:25,190 --> 00:25:22,500 machine gun in the back of this Jeep and 629 00:25:27,649 --> 00:25:25,200 all these soldiers the Jeep pulls out 630 00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:27,659 we're told to get in the car we follow 631 00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:30,960 the Jeep and the soldiers go with us all 632 00:25:35,570 --> 00:25:32,640 the way back out to the highway 633 00:25:37,130 --> 00:25:35,580 when we get back out to the highway they 634 00:25:38,510 --> 00:25:37,140 set us right there they wouldn't let us 635 00:25:39,890 --> 00:25:38,520 out of the car they wouldn't let us move 636 00:25:41,450 --> 00:25:39,900 forward I don't know where they're 637 00:25:42,890 --> 00:25:41,460 making the decision or what when we got 638 00:25:46,190 --> 00:25:42,900 out the highway this place was 639 00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:46,200 absolutely full of military personnel 640 00:25:50,269 --> 00:25:48,720 military equipment there was airplanes 641 00:25:52,370 --> 00:25:50,279 sitting out there that they had landed 642 00:25:54,049 --> 00:25:52,380 on the highway did you see any airplanes 643 00:25:54,890 --> 00:25:54,059 when you were back at the sun yeah there 644 00:25:57,169 --> 00:25:54,900 was Earth 645 00:25:58,610 --> 00:25:57,179 sky but nobody thought much about it you 646 00:26:00,230 --> 00:25:58,620 know I didn't think anything about it I 647 00:26:01,909 --> 00:26:00,240 was used to airplanes being in the sky 648 00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:01,919 having you know been raised in 649 00:26:05,330 --> 00:26:03,600 Indianapolis Indiana the home of the 650 00:26:07,130 --> 00:26:05,340 northern bomb site you know this guy was 651 00:26:09,409 --> 00:26:07,140 always full of military aircraft I never 652 00:26:10,789 --> 00:26:09,419 thought nothing about it and when we get 653 00:26:12,890 --> 00:26:10,799 back onto the highway there's 654 00:26:15,529 --> 00:26:12,900 observation aircraft you know high wind 655 00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:15,539 aircraft and there's one what I know now 656 00:26:20,870 --> 00:26:18,240 to be a c-47 center and how we didn't 657 00:26:22,370 --> 00:26:20,880 hear that lens Beyond me and how he land 658 00:26:25,909 --> 00:26:22,380 well of course I guess you could land if 659 00:26:31,610 --> 00:26:28,730 and it was they had tore the fence down 660 00:26:33,649 --> 00:26:31,620 on the north side of that Highway and 661 00:26:34,970 --> 00:26:33,659 all this equipment was setting back up 662 00:26:36,470 --> 00:26:34,980 there and that plane was up there and 663 00:26:39,529 --> 00:26:36,480 they were taking stuff out of the plane 664 00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:39,539 there was military ambulances and there 665 00:26:46,370 --> 00:26:41,760 was trucks with uh like uh 666 00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:46,380 Wreckers cranes on it and there was 667 00:26:51,169 --> 00:26:49,200 tankers like maybe had fuel or water in 668 00:26:53,330 --> 00:26:51,179 them there was just everywhere you 669 00:26:55,010 --> 00:26:53,340 looked there was military and a major 670 00:26:57,710 --> 00:26:55,020 recovery operation 671 00:26:59,810 --> 00:26:57,720 yeah it looked like an invasion force it 672 00:27:04,250 --> 00:26:59,820 really did and they were all wearing 673 00:27:05,870 --> 00:27:04,260 these these light light khaki uniforms 674 00:27:08,570 --> 00:27:05,880 they didn't look like you know Ollie 675 00:27:10,669 --> 00:27:08,580 dress they were like khaki and they all 676 00:27:13,250 --> 00:27:10,679 had the same patch over there that kind 677 00:27:17,149 --> 00:27:13,260 of blew funny patch with the the circles 678 00:27:18,649 --> 00:27:17,159 on it was was on her shoulder and a lot 679 00:27:20,390 --> 00:27:18,659 of any clue as to where they came from 680 00:27:23,149 --> 00:27:20,400 did your brother or your 681 00:27:24,769 --> 00:27:23,159 I I don't know where they came from 682 00:27:27,230 --> 00:27:24,779 no I don't think anybody ever 683 00:27:30,409 --> 00:27:27,240 ascertained that 684 00:27:31,789 --> 00:27:30,419 there were a lot of them had MP pack 685 00:27:34,430 --> 00:27:31,799 and some of them were wearing night 686 00:27:36,350 --> 00:27:34,440 sticks off of these uh webbed utility 687 00:27:39,169 --> 00:27:36,360 belts they had night sticks and they had 688 00:27:41,990 --> 00:27:39,179 45s and holsters you know the automatic 689 00:27:43,490 --> 00:27:42,000 set in the full roaster and these were 690 00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:43,500 the people who were given most of the 691 00:27:46,909 --> 00:27:45,120 orders 692 00:27:48,409 --> 00:27:46,919 you had the road barricaded off out 693 00:27:49,610 --> 00:27:48,419 there and we sat there for a very long 694 00:27:51,289 --> 00:27:49,620 time and you know we were getting 695 00:27:52,610 --> 00:27:51,299 thirsty and everything and we asked you 696 00:27:54,590 --> 00:27:52,620 know if we could go back to horse 697 00:27:56,630 --> 00:27:54,600 Springs and get some water oh no no you 698 00:27:58,070 --> 00:27:56,640 can't go through there and right after 699 00:28:00,529 --> 00:27:58,080 that they said no you just turn around 700 00:28:02,990 --> 00:28:00,539 and you head out of here now and you go 701 00:28:06,169 --> 00:28:03,000 to Socorro and you and this is a redhead 702 00:28:09,710 --> 00:28:06,179 again keep your mouth shut just keep 703 00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:09,720 going and don't look back well and so we 704 00:28:13,909 --> 00:28:12,720 drove away on deadness and Hell we'll go 705 00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:13,919 to Magdalene we'll get a water in 706 00:28:16,909 --> 00:28:15,360 Magdalena you know because that's where 707 00:28:18,169 --> 00:28:16,919 John Trujillo that they're relative 708 00:28:20,750 --> 00:28:18,179 intent 709 00:28:22,730 --> 00:28:20,760 and uh 710 00:28:24,710 --> 00:28:22,740 so as we drove away I was looking out 711 00:28:26,090 --> 00:28:24,720 the back window and I could see Dr 712 00:28:28,130 --> 00:28:26,100 buskert 713 00:28:30,350 --> 00:28:28,140 and these kids 714 00:28:33,710 --> 00:28:30,360 and that guy that got out of the pickup 715 00:28:34,909 --> 00:28:33,720 was standing there and this Dr Busker 716 00:28:37,610 --> 00:28:34,919 was 717 00:28:40,250 --> 00:28:37,620 doing just like this in this red-headed 718 00:28:43,610 --> 00:28:40,260 officer's face and he kept pointing back 719 00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:43,620 behind him and I guess that meant you 720 00:28:46,909 --> 00:28:45,600 know we got to go back that way and he 721 00:28:48,409 --> 00:28:46,919 was fed up with this guy or something 722 00:28:49,669 --> 00:28:48,419 and he was shaking his finger in his 723 00:28:50,450 --> 00:28:49,679 face while they were yelling at each 724 00:28:53,269 --> 00:28:50,460 other 725 00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:53,279 and that's pretty much the last I saw in 726 00:28:56,330 --> 00:28:54,720 the whole situation I don't know what 727 00:28:59,090 --> 00:28:56,340 happened after that because we just kept 728 00:29:01,430 --> 00:28:59,100 going to get home before dark 729 00:29:02,750 --> 00:29:01,440 oh yeah yeah it was before dark of 730 00:29:05,330 --> 00:29:02,760 course it was in the summertime so it 731 00:29:09,289 --> 00:29:05,340 didn't get dark until way late and we 732 00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:09,299 stopped in in Magdalena very briefly and 733 00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:11,760 you know and it's kept 734 00:29:16,010 --> 00:29:13,440 and uh 735 00:29:18,169 --> 00:29:16,020 the adults were really funny you know 736 00:29:20,570 --> 00:29:18,179 they were really scared 737 00:29:21,889 --> 00:29:20,580 I had very rarely you know well of 738 00:29:24,470 --> 00:29:21,899 course I didn't know him that well but 739 00:29:28,310 --> 00:29:24,480 over the years I knew that Ted was not 740 00:29:32,269 --> 00:29:30,350 ipline but he really knocked the fire 741 00:29:33,769 --> 00:29:32,279 out of the World Victory Victor will 742 00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:33,779 want to talk about what we just saw I 743 00:29:37,549 --> 00:29:35,520 just saw him take you a tongue shut up 744 00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:37,559 don't talk about it nobody's talking 745 00:29:40,190 --> 00:29:38,640 about this 746 00:29:42,529 --> 00:29:40,200 finally he just turned around and 747 00:29:45,230 --> 00:29:42,539 knocked the living hell out of uh Victor 748 00:29:48,169 --> 00:29:45,240 for his mouth off did Ted work 749 00:29:49,430 --> 00:29:48,179 at San Diego yes he did he was uh he did 750 00:29:52,310 --> 00:29:49,440 something out there in the technical 751 00:29:59,090 --> 00:29:52,320 area out of clearance yes 752 00:30:03,889 --> 00:30:01,370 he did he retired and dad had some very 753 00:30:07,010 --> 00:30:03,899 high clearances okay um 754 00:30:11,810 --> 00:30:07,020 when we got home 755 00:30:14,210 --> 00:30:11,820 mom was over at Uncle Ted's house and 756 00:30:16,190 --> 00:30:14,220 mom perceived instantly that something 757 00:30:18,169 --> 00:30:16,200 was wrong so what's wrong with Glenn 758 00:30:20,149 --> 00:30:18,179 Heisman 759 00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:20,159 they decided they'd tell him well when 760 00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:22,559 he did then of course Isabel oh my God 761 00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:24,720 you saw demons you saw the devil because 762 00:30:30,110 --> 00:30:27,360 Isabelle was Ted's wife 763 00:30:33,769 --> 00:30:30,120 without the religious Catholic person 764 00:30:35,330 --> 00:30:33,779 who thinks anything that isn't uh 765 00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:35,340 Virgin Mary 766 00:30:43,190 --> 00:30:38,399 but Jesus is quote unquote demons and 767 00:30:46,669 --> 00:30:43,200 that's we saw and of course Ted you know 768 00:30:48,529 --> 00:30:46,679 put her on and we really never talked 769 00:30:50,690 --> 00:30:48,539 about it much in the family because of 770 00:30:53,950 --> 00:30:50,700 the reaction it got 771 00:30:56,570 --> 00:30:53,960 my dad was really afraid and so was Ted 772 00:30:57,950 --> 00:30:56,580 and Glenn especially because Glenn made 773 00:30:59,630 --> 00:30:57,960 the statement about when he first saw 774 00:31:02,750 --> 00:30:59,640 the military 775 00:31:04,250 --> 00:31:02,760 he told my father he said and Ted and 776 00:31:06,529 --> 00:31:04,260 everybody there don't let them some 777 00:31:09,470 --> 00:31:06,539 know I'm a marine don't let them 778 00:31:12,889 --> 00:31:09,480 know and of course nobody did and he was 779 00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:12,899 staying close so you know cat pair of 780 00:31:17,870 --> 00:31:16,140 blue jeans either wasn't staying close 781 00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:17,880 so you know he didn't look like military 782 00:31:20,950 --> 00:31:19,919 or I'm sure his ass has been in real 783 00:31:24,529 --> 00:31:20,960 trouble 784 00:31:25,850 --> 00:31:24,539 and they never checked they just assumed 785 00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:25,860 yeah I guess that we were did they ask 786 00:31:31,430 --> 00:31:28,080 your name oh yeah they took our names 787 00:31:34,010 --> 00:31:31,440 they got all that from my dad 788 00:31:37,130 --> 00:31:34,020 and my brother just very 789 00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:37,140 cursory would you know British hardly 790 00:31:45,889 --> 00:31:44,029 the circumstances and of course they 791 00:31:48,049 --> 00:31:45,899 never really asked me any questions at 792 00:31:52,610 --> 00:31:48,059 all you were just a kid you know just a 793 00:31:55,730 --> 00:31:52,620 kid and well you first went public with 794 00:31:58,610 --> 00:31:55,740 this now let's first square away all the 795 00:32:00,529 --> 00:31:58,620 other four that you were with who did 796 00:32:02,210 --> 00:32:00,539 and it's been some time yeah my brother 797 00:32:05,930 --> 00:32:02,220 died of a heart attack in Mexico City 798 00:32:09,769 --> 00:32:05,940 and my dad died of a heart attack in 78 799 00:32:11,149 --> 00:32:09,779 and uh Ted and Victor were killed and 800 00:32:14,029 --> 00:32:11,159 Ronald mobile accident 801 00:32:16,310 --> 00:32:14,039 in the mid 60s and I assumed up to 65. 802 00:32:18,769 --> 00:32:16,320 right now there's a strange diary that's 803 00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:18,779 turned up how did that happen 804 00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:21,600 well when I went to my father's funeral 805 00:32:28,190 --> 00:32:25,620 in 1978 a lot of Dad's belongings for 806 00:32:30,049 --> 00:32:28,200 personal belongings were given to us you 807 00:32:32,090 --> 00:32:30,059 didn't live in the area oh no you've 808 00:32:34,250 --> 00:32:32,100 gone off to the military yeah I've been 809 00:32:35,930 --> 00:32:34,260 in the military and subsequently on the 810 00:32:39,230 --> 00:32:35,940 return to the military moved to Colorado 811 00:32:41,389 --> 00:32:39,240 immediately and uh your dad had 812 00:32:44,269 --> 00:32:41,399 remarried a couple of times and 813 00:32:45,529 --> 00:32:44,279 oh yeah this is uh so dad was on his 814 00:32:50,149 --> 00:32:45,539 third wife 815 00:32:51,350 --> 00:32:50,159 and uh he his personal belongings and 816 00:32:53,510 --> 00:32:51,360 stuff you know 817 00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:53,520 you know kind of give it to my brothers 818 00:32:57,529 --> 00:32:55,200 and myself and 819 00:33:09,289 --> 00:32:57,539 my cousin Valley Gene was there at the 820 00:33:14,570 --> 00:33:11,690 yes had this too and she handed me these 821 00:33:16,190 --> 00:33:14,580 photocopies and at first you know I 822 00:33:18,289 --> 00:33:16,200 thought well you know what is the stats 823 00:33:20,810 --> 00:33:18,299 there and she said no 824 00:33:22,970 --> 00:33:20,820 my dad's diary but you were there you 825 00:33:24,350 --> 00:33:22,980 need to have this and then it done what 826 00:33:25,970 --> 00:33:24,360 I was looking at 827 00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:25,980 I read a little bit 828 00:33:30,110 --> 00:33:29,039 and so I said yeah okay you know and I 829 00:33:31,630 --> 00:33:30,120 didn't want to talk about it at the 830 00:33:34,370 --> 00:33:31,640 funeral because 831 00:33:36,529 --> 00:33:34,380 Roz's side of the family God bless your 832 00:33:39,049 --> 00:33:36,539 dad's third and wife God bless her I 833 00:33:41,090 --> 00:33:39,059 loved her but they were very religious 834 00:33:44,389 --> 00:33:41,100 and they would have viewed this exactly 835 00:33:44,399 --> 00:33:50,630 I really didn't want to 836 00:33:55,490 --> 00:33:52,430 see 837 00:33:57,950 --> 00:33:55,500 the eyes were not quite you're active in 838 00:34:00,169 --> 00:33:57,960 religion now oh yes yes you're a deacon 839 00:34:01,730 --> 00:34:00,179 in the Episcopal church right 840 00:34:03,950 --> 00:34:01,740 okay that means you actively 841 00:34:07,549 --> 00:34:03,960 participated well yeah lay Eucharist 842 00:34:10,010 --> 00:34:07,559 administrator okay so I yes I actively 843 00:34:11,629 --> 00:34:10,020 participated I serve on the altar what 844 00:34:12,889 --> 00:34:11,639 do you do for a living man I'm a 845 00:34:14,930 --> 00:34:12,899 security officer in the state of 846 00:34:16,730 --> 00:34:14,940 Missouri and you've been doing police 847 00:34:19,070 --> 00:34:16,740 sort of work for several years oh yes 848 00:34:23,089 --> 00:34:21,349 and you also are going to college to be 849 00:34:24,589 --> 00:34:23,099 a nurse and you've already got a couple 850 00:34:26,210 --> 00:34:24,599 of associate degrees from Community 851 00:34:28,070 --> 00:34:26,220 College it's all right 852 00:34:29,750 --> 00:34:28,080 the one Associated science and one 853 00:34:32,530 --> 00:34:29,760 associated general studies and I'm 854 00:34:35,690 --> 00:34:32,540 working toward my Bachelor's of Nursing 855 00:34:37,970 --> 00:34:35,700 in roughly two years I will have my 856 00:34:39,470 --> 00:34:37,980 bachelor of nursing home now to be a 857 00:34:41,149 --> 00:34:39,480 security officer you have to be licensed 858 00:34:43,010 --> 00:34:41,159 by the state of Missouri yes you have to 859 00:34:44,750 --> 00:34:43,020 be a certified law enforcement officer 860 00:34:47,089 --> 00:34:44,760 which means that you have to have gone 861 00:34:48,290 --> 00:34:47,099 to the state of 862 00:34:50,810 --> 00:34:48,300 Connecticut Department of Public state 863 00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:50,820 so that's not just a pickup thing oh no 864 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,030 um and you have to 865 00:35:02,690 --> 00:35:00,950 to State under these conditions you have 866 00:35:04,070 --> 00:35:02,700 to not only be certified but you have to 867 00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:04,080 have prior law enforcement experience 868 00:35:07,370 --> 00:35:06,000 now when we get back to the diary for 869 00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:07,380 just a minute 870 00:35:10,370 --> 00:35:08,640 uh 871 00:35:13,370 --> 00:35:10,380 when you are hypnotized by John 872 00:35:15,650 --> 00:35:13,380 Carpenter a psychiatric social worker 873 00:35:17,569 --> 00:35:15,660 and he was asking you questions about 874 00:35:18,890 --> 00:35:17,579 the diary 875 00:35:20,210 --> 00:35:18,900 apparently 876 00:35:22,430 --> 00:35:20,220 you've been told that there were a 877 00:35:25,790 --> 00:35:22,440 number of copies of that around 878 00:35:28,609 --> 00:35:25,800 uh yeah something buried out maybe there 879 00:35:30,890 --> 00:35:28,619 too yeah as I understood well in fact in 880 00:35:32,930 --> 00:35:30,900 conversations with Valley Gene after the 881 00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:32,940 fact after I got 882 00:35:36,370 --> 00:35:34,800 involved in this thing through the 883 00:35:41,930 --> 00:35:36,380 Unsolved Mysteries thing 884 00:35:44,329 --> 00:35:41,940 uh I was told that that wasn't the only 885 00:35:47,810 --> 00:35:44,339 diary that what I had was a was a copy 886 00:35:49,550 --> 00:35:47,820 or it was a photocopy okay and uh that 887 00:35:52,910 --> 00:35:49,560 there were a lot of these copies around 888 00:35:53,930 --> 00:35:52,920 and apparently uncle Ted or someone had 889 00:35:56,089 --> 00:35:53,940 had 890 00:35:59,990 --> 00:35:56,099 put these out through different people 891 00:36:02,210 --> 00:36:00,000 in the family and friends and stuff uh 892 00:36:04,010 --> 00:36:02,220 for reasons I don't know to keep her 893 00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:04,020 from getting lost or something like that 894 00:36:07,870 --> 00:36:06,480 okay now when I asked you for the 895 00:36:10,730 --> 00:36:07,880 original 896 00:36:13,970 --> 00:36:10,740 you contacted 897 00:36:16,849 --> 00:36:13,980 who who yeah Valley Gene that was Valley 898 00:36:19,550 --> 00:36:16,859 Gene okay she was in a Convent right 899 00:36:21,829 --> 00:36:19,560 and she was reluctant to do anything you 900 00:36:23,089 --> 00:36:21,839 had to call a number of times that's 901 00:36:26,270 --> 00:36:23,099 correct and you talk to the bishop 902 00:36:28,130 --> 00:36:26,280 somebody times yeah I talked to a bishop 903 00:36:31,130 --> 00:36:28,140 and he convinced her to send the stuff 904 00:36:32,930 --> 00:36:31,140 to me yes apparently okay because I got 905 00:36:34,670 --> 00:36:32,940 it directly from Colorado 906 00:36:36,050 --> 00:36:34,680 with a cover letter that strongly 907 00:36:37,670 --> 00:36:36,060 indicated that she didn't want any more 908 00:36:38,750 --> 00:36:37,680 to do with this that was part of the 909 00:36:40,730 --> 00:36:38,760 agreement 910 00:36:43,250 --> 00:36:40,740 but that she considered this the work of 911 00:36:46,609 --> 00:36:43,260 the devil or words to that effect anyway 912 00:36:51,170 --> 00:36:48,310 okay 913 00:36:53,450 --> 00:36:51,180 see all I ever had of this was the was 914 00:36:56,089 --> 00:36:53,460 the photographic copies that I had 915 00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:56,099 showed you originally and as I 916 00:37:00,349 --> 00:36:58,560 understand it you received I received 917 00:37:01,790 --> 00:37:00,359 the original from which those have been 918 00:37:03,290 --> 00:37:01,800 made they were partly burnt she 919 00:37:05,390 --> 00:37:03,300 mentioned she had intended to burn them 920 00:37:07,910 --> 00:37:05,400 but because of your persistence and with 921 00:37:10,310 --> 00:37:07,920 the agreement that I never contacted her 922 00:37:12,109 --> 00:37:10,320 she would send them to me and as you 923 00:37:14,150 --> 00:37:12,119 know when I had forensic analysis done 924 00:37:15,890 --> 00:37:14,160 it showed that the ink dated from the 925 00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:15,900 early 70s the paper could have been 926 00:37:20,150 --> 00:37:19,200 available in 47. so it was clearly not 927 00:37:22,609 --> 00:37:20,160 an original 928 00:37:25,190 --> 00:37:22,619 but it was also done before there was 929 00:37:27,109 --> 00:37:25,200 any publicity about this case anyway 930 00:37:28,970 --> 00:37:27,119 because I know I was the first one to 931 00:37:30,290 --> 00:37:28,980 get involved exactly 932 00:37:31,130 --> 00:37:30,300 now 933 00:37:34,130 --> 00:37:31,140 um 934 00:37:37,370 --> 00:37:34,140 as you know we have discovered 935 00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:37,380 not I but you had identa sketches done 936 00:37:41,450 --> 00:37:39,119 by a police artist 937 00:37:44,810 --> 00:37:41,460 of the various people involved in this 938 00:37:46,730 --> 00:37:44,820 right and as you know there is a picture 939 00:37:48,410 --> 00:37:46,740 several pictures that seem to indicate 940 00:37:52,730 --> 00:37:48,420 that Dr Buskirk 941 00:37:55,069 --> 00:37:52,740 uh was Dr Winfred Buskirk who received 942 00:37:56,569 --> 00:37:55,079 his PhD at University of New Mexico 943 00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:56,579 and you would describe them as in his 944 00:38:00,890 --> 00:37:58,320 late 30s early 40s it turns out he was 945 00:38:02,750 --> 00:38:00,900 39 in 1940 and 47 he was bald and 946 00:38:05,690 --> 00:38:02,760 involved most of his life even up to 947 00:38:09,290 --> 00:38:05,700 then uh 948 00:38:11,450 --> 00:38:09,300 did was there other contact between you 949 00:38:13,849 --> 00:38:11,460 and he at that time as far as you knew 950 00:38:16,450 --> 00:38:13,859 your family and him or 951 00:38:19,370 --> 00:38:16,460 uh I don't know 952 00:38:21,349 --> 00:38:19,380 I don't not to my knowledge I don't 953 00:38:23,450 --> 00:38:21,359 believe my dad 954 00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:23,460 had ever contact him it's just a 955 00:38:32,510 --> 00:38:31,250 I think Valley Gene had alluded to the 956 00:38:35,690 --> 00:38:32,520 fact 957 00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:35,700 that Ted had been in contact with him 958 00:38:40,849 --> 00:38:38,160 and uh that they had corresponded in 959 00:38:42,410 --> 00:38:40,859 this kind of thing but as far as any 960 00:38:44,030 --> 00:38:42,420 personal knowledge 961 00:38:46,010 --> 00:38:44,040 okay now you didn't tell your story 962 00:38:48,829 --> 00:38:46,020 really until the Unsolved Mysteries 963 00:38:50,750 --> 00:38:48,839 program was rerun in January of 1990. 964 00:38:53,530 --> 00:38:50,760 that's right that's when you contacted 965 00:38:55,550 --> 00:38:53,540 them got my address wrote me yeah 966 00:38:57,349 --> 00:38:55,560 we're a little upset that the program 967 00:38:58,970 --> 00:38:57,359 wasn't quite accurate well yeah that was 968 00:39:00,349 --> 00:38:58,980 the whole thing it started off as a 969 00:39:03,109 --> 00:39:00,359 flute to begin with because everything 970 00:39:06,349 --> 00:39:03,119 that I saw didn't didn't jive with what 971 00:39:07,790 --> 00:39:06,359 I had seen personally I guess I was kind 972 00:39:10,069 --> 00:39:07,800 of missed you know I hear all these 973 00:39:13,550 --> 00:39:10,079 years I had been 974 00:39:16,450 --> 00:39:13,560 primarily Forest you know by not only by 975 00:39:19,609 --> 00:39:16,460 others but by you know my own sense of 976 00:39:22,370 --> 00:39:19,619 survival to keep my mouth shut and wow 977 00:39:26,630 --> 00:39:22,380 here it is it's on TV and he got it 978 00:39:28,849 --> 00:39:26,640 wrong that's just impulsively call the 979 00:39:31,970 --> 00:39:28,859 number and told the lady wait a minute 980 00:39:33,890 --> 00:39:31,980 thing was wrong why do you know that sir 981 00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:33,900 and I said well because I was there 982 00:39:38,930 --> 00:39:36,960 that's why and boy I really apparently 983 00:39:40,670 --> 00:39:38,940 pulled somebody's strength 984 00:39:42,050 --> 00:39:40,680 yeah and the key thing that was wrong of 985 00:39:43,550 --> 00:39:42,060 course there were a few mistakes in an 986 00:39:44,870 --> 00:39:43,560 otherwise excellent program was that 987 00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:44,880 they had that 988 00:39:50,270 --> 00:39:47,280 the Barney Barnett the civil engineer 989 00:39:52,430 --> 00:39:50,280 story over near Corona and you knew that 990 00:39:54,470 --> 00:39:52,440 it was over in the in the plains right 991 00:39:56,270 --> 00:39:54,480 there's a lot more well yeah and then 992 00:39:59,030 --> 00:39:56,280 the fact that the thing looked like a 993 00:40:00,230 --> 00:39:59,040 tent flat or a tent top hat and it 994 00:40:03,109 --> 00:40:00,240 didn't 995 00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:03,119 this shape and the Barney Barnett or 996 00:40:08,030 --> 00:40:05,760 whoever the guy in the truck was did not 997 00:40:11,390 --> 00:40:08,040 drive right up to it on a road it wasn't 998 00:40:13,670 --> 00:40:11,400 parked conveniently next to a a thorough 999 00:40:16,130 --> 00:40:13,680 Ferry you know and uh there was it was 1000 00:40:17,270 --> 00:40:16,140 just things like that I I don't know I 1001 00:40:19,069 --> 00:40:17,280 just 1002 00:40:20,329 --> 00:40:19,079 for some reason I thought well you know 1003 00:40:22,490 --> 00:40:20,339 gee 1004 00:40:25,250 --> 00:40:22,500 it's already public yeah it's stories 1005 00:40:26,690 --> 00:40:25,260 out and let's get it right you know of 1006 00:40:28,490 --> 00:40:26,700 course I didn't I don't think I realized 1007 00:40:32,050 --> 00:40:28,500 at the time you know how involved this 1008 00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:32,060 was going to be but what kind of reasons 1009 00:40:37,250 --> 00:40:34,800 now I got you together with John 1010 00:40:39,290 --> 00:40:37,260 Carpenter Patrick social worker and you 1011 00:40:44,089 --> 00:40:39,300 guys had several sessions and 1012 00:40:46,430 --> 00:40:44,099 then we flew out to the site uh 1013 00:40:48,170 --> 00:40:46,440 you're reasonably convinced now that the 1014 00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:48,180 second time around out there we did find 1015 00:40:54,530 --> 00:40:50,880 the exact location yeah the first time 1016 00:40:57,290 --> 00:40:54,540 in I you know it was like 43 years and 1017 00:40:58,910 --> 00:40:57,300 we're in a helicopter yeah I was in the 1018 00:41:01,130 --> 00:40:58,920 air this time and yeah last time I was 1019 00:41:03,170 --> 00:41:01,140 underground and so you know the 1020 00:41:05,870 --> 00:41:03,180 landmarks were a little confusing I was 1021 00:41:07,910 --> 00:41:05,880 positive I was in the right place but 1022 00:41:10,130 --> 00:41:07,920 until we actually got on the ground John 1023 00:41:13,810 --> 00:41:10,140 and I and retraced the route in there 1024 00:41:16,490 --> 00:41:13,820 that we had come in in the car uh I was 1025 00:41:18,530 --> 00:41:16,500 absolutely sure there was two ridgelines 1026 00:41:21,109 --> 00:41:18,540 there and I wasn't really sure of which 1027 00:41:23,329 --> 00:41:21,119 one it was and I had the feeling that 1028 00:41:25,190 --> 00:41:23,339 the first one that I had pointed out was 1029 00:41:27,890 --> 00:41:25,200 the correct one but once I went in on 1030 00:41:29,870 --> 00:41:27,900 the ground on foot with John I knew 1031 00:41:32,569 --> 00:41:29,880 instantly that it wasn't that one it was 1032 00:41:34,190 --> 00:41:32,579 the other one and I absolutely positive 1033 00:41:36,109 --> 00:41:34,200 that that's where I was at and asked a 1034 00:41:37,730 --> 00:41:36,119 question in my mind and you will recall 1035 00:41:40,730 --> 00:41:37,740 that you described the woman who sold 1036 00:41:42,410 --> 00:41:40,740 you the pop on the way in right and we 1037 00:41:44,290 --> 00:41:42,420 found the older woman there who said 1038 00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:44,300 that was exactly what she looked like 1039 00:41:49,550 --> 00:41:47,520 I'll never forget that 1040 00:41:51,710 --> 00:41:49,560 like why it had it with the heat I'm 1041 00:41:54,770 --> 00:41:51,720 telling you back seat of that 40 1042 00:41:56,510 --> 00:41:54,780 Plymouth ah down those dirty old roads 1043 00:41:59,030 --> 00:41:56,520 and stuff 1044 00:42:00,890 --> 00:41:59,040 a mile after Mile and of course my dad 1045 00:42:03,650 --> 00:42:00,900 was one of these kind of people when he 1046 00:42:06,170 --> 00:42:03,660 got in a car it was point A to point B 1047 00:42:08,089 --> 00:42:06,180 non-stop I don't know why he just never 1048 00:42:11,630 --> 00:42:08,099 stopped to smell the roses were hauling 1049 00:42:14,210 --> 00:42:11,640 away and so you know I was pretty sad 1050 00:42:16,250 --> 00:42:14,220 shape and yeah I remember that lady 1051 00:42:18,589 --> 00:42:16,260 what kind of response have you had it 1052 00:42:21,050 --> 00:42:18,599 went public I mean John talked to a 1053 00:42:23,089 --> 00:42:21,060 newsman you both talked he called me in 1054 00:42:24,589 --> 00:42:23,099 the Springfield newspapery people paper 1055 00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:24,599 paper carried a very straight very large 1056 00:42:28,910 --> 00:42:26,880 article and that got spread around by 1057 00:42:30,589 --> 00:42:28,920 lots of people so suddenly you're a 1058 00:42:32,870 --> 00:42:30,599 celebrity if you will what kind of 1059 00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:32,880 reaction from the 1060 00:42:39,470 --> 00:42:35,359 on campus where you worked 1061 00:42:42,050 --> 00:42:39,480 very very few negativists there there's 1062 00:42:43,849 --> 00:42:42,060 the noisy negative 1063 00:42:46,569 --> 00:42:43,859 we have those 1064 00:42:49,370 --> 00:42:46,579 but in general 1065 00:42:50,510 --> 00:42:49,380 99 of the people were incredibly 1066 00:42:55,010 --> 00:42:50,520 supported 1067 00:42:58,130 --> 00:42:55,020 uh only one professor at the University 1068 00:43:00,410 --> 00:42:58,140 was of the negatives type that was 1069 00:43:02,930 --> 00:43:00,420 everybody else just 100 percent 1070 00:43:05,569 --> 00:43:02,940 supporting the majority of these people 1071 00:43:08,690 --> 00:43:05,579 are absolutely convinced even without 1072 00:43:11,030 --> 00:43:08,700 this story that extraterrestrial life 1073 00:43:13,370 --> 00:43:11,040 forms exist and that the people are 1074 00:43:15,710 --> 00:43:13,380 flying around out there and moving 1075 00:43:18,410 --> 00:43:15,720 between systems and stuff and it was 1076 00:43:20,809 --> 00:43:18,420 just it's just an unbelievable amount of 1077 00:43:22,370 --> 00:43:20,819 support you didn't lose your job oh no 1078 00:43:25,250 --> 00:43:22,380 boss didn't give you a hard time 1079 00:43:28,250 --> 00:43:25,260 absolutely not in fact uh I think it's I 1080 00:43:31,430 --> 00:43:28,260 can I can publicly say that my boss is 1081 00:43:35,150 --> 00:43:31,440 extremely supportive because he is a 1082 00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:35,160 Avid ufologist himself he is fascinated 1083 00:43:38,390 --> 00:43:36,720 by the subject and 1084 00:43:40,490 --> 00:43:38,400 you won't have any problem convincing 1085 00:43:43,010 --> 00:43:40,500 him either and my boss has a master's 1086 00:43:45,410 --> 00:43:43,020 degree he's not someone that's untrained 1087 00:43:47,930 --> 00:43:45,420 Observer that's given to hallucination 1088 00:43:50,210 --> 00:43:47,940 most of the people who are the most 1089 00:43:52,970 --> 00:43:50,220 supportive of me are people who are very 1090 00:43:56,089 --> 00:43:52,980 high education is very very solid 1091 00:43:58,609 --> 00:43:56,099 education solid outstanding 1092 00:44:00,910 --> 00:43:58,619 not given to hallucination you went you 1093 00:44:03,170 --> 00:44:00,920 attended a UFO conference with John 1094 00:44:04,849 --> 00:44:03,180 Carpenter and he gave a paper I guess 1095 00:44:06,470 --> 00:44:04,859 and introduced you 1096 00:44:10,370 --> 00:44:06,480 and you've got a response from that 1097 00:44:11,809 --> 00:44:10,380 audience too yeah a 100 supportive uh 1098 00:44:14,089 --> 00:44:11,819 really 1099 00:44:15,109 --> 00:44:14,099 we're quite relieved and made very very 1100 00:44:16,670 --> 00:44:15,119 welcome 1101 00:44:19,190 --> 00:44:16,680 well you've been interviewed by a number 1102 00:44:21,349 --> 00:44:19,200 of other people Linda Howe working on a 1103 00:44:23,390 --> 00:44:21,359 documentary and so forth seems to have 1104 00:44:26,990 --> 00:44:23,400 brought the story now uh how much 1105 00:44:30,650 --> 00:44:27,000 contact did you have with Kevin Randall 1106 00:44:33,230 --> 00:44:30,660 a very brief telephone call 1107 00:44:36,109 --> 00:44:33,240 I came home from work one day and there 1108 00:44:37,790 --> 00:44:36,119 was a message on my answering machine 1109 00:44:40,910 --> 00:44:37,800 in Tennessee to be hard to get a hold of 1110 00:44:45,890 --> 00:44:43,309 he had left his number and of course I 1111 00:44:48,410 --> 00:44:45,900 had his address and I and yours and I 1112 00:44:49,970 --> 00:44:48,420 had sent cards to both of you and 1113 00:44:51,050 --> 00:44:49,980 something to the effect if you want to 1114 00:44:54,290 --> 00:44:51,060 know what really happened out there 1115 00:44:55,790 --> 00:44:54,300 called me and uh he had called and I 1116 00:44:58,010 --> 00:44:55,800 wasn't there and he had left his number 1117 00:44:59,569 --> 00:44:58,020 so I returned his call 1118 00:45:01,609 --> 00:44:59,579 now 1119 00:45:03,589 --> 00:45:01,619 I talked to him 1120 00:45:05,210 --> 00:45:03,599 very briefly 1121 00:45:07,250 --> 00:45:05,220 uh 1122 00:45:09,770 --> 00:45:07,260 primarily because 1123 00:45:13,069 --> 00:45:09,780 I didn't like the man's attitude 1124 00:45:15,410 --> 00:45:13,079 I don't feel comfortable with people who 1125 00:45:18,530 --> 00:45:15,420 call other people liars and charlatans 1126 00:45:20,270 --> 00:45:18,540 and phonies and say that they rigged 1127 00:45:21,890 --> 00:45:20,280 their research to make it come out the 1128 00:45:24,170 --> 00:45:21,900 way they want and when someone starts 1129 00:45:25,730 --> 00:45:24,180 telling me this kind of thing then the 1130 00:45:27,770 --> 00:45:25,740 first thing I want to do is I want to 1131 00:45:30,410 --> 00:45:27,780 get away from them and this 1132 00:45:32,150 --> 00:45:30,420 did now I understand that this man 1133 00:45:34,309 --> 00:45:32,160 claims that I talked to him for two 1134 00:45:36,650 --> 00:45:34,319 hours and that he has a two-hour tape of 1135 00:45:38,990 --> 00:45:36,660 one contradiction after another and man 1136 00:45:41,270 --> 00:45:39,000 that's not quite true okay there's been 1137 00:45:43,550 --> 00:45:41,280 no other contact with no other contact I 1138 00:45:44,569 --> 00:45:43,560 won't give the man at 1139 00:45:46,730 --> 00:45:44,579 it and 1140 00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:46,740 has any other investigator any of the 1141 00:45:51,050 --> 00:45:48,720 noisy negativists approach to direct no 1142 00:45:54,050 --> 00:45:51,060 not at all the only other investigator 1143 00:45:59,890 --> 00:45:54,060 is you yourself or Don Berliner and Bob 1144 00:46:06,530 --> 00:46:04,190 and you agree that on that first trip to 1145 00:46:09,230 --> 00:46:06,540 the plains it was you I Bob Bigelow and 1146 00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:09,240 a pilot in the helicopter yeah uh Joe 1147 00:46:13,069 --> 00:46:11,040 chatting the pilot was in the front seat 1148 00:46:14,630 --> 00:46:13,079 on the left side I was in the front seat 1149 00:46:19,190 --> 00:46:14,640 on her right side 1150 00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:21,050 no 1151 00:46:24,710 --> 00:46:23,040 you were directly behind the pilot on 1152 00:46:27,349 --> 00:46:24,720 the left side and Bob Bigler was 1153 00:46:29,630 --> 00:46:27,359 directly behind me on a passenger side 1154 00:46:32,030 --> 00:46:29,640 right and then we met up with eventually 1155 00:46:33,589 --> 00:46:32,040 with the Don Berliner Carpenter they 1156 00:46:35,690 --> 00:46:33,599 were in the next three days they drove 1157 00:46:37,309 --> 00:46:35,700 to dabble they drove the Jeeps and stuff 1158 00:46:39,470 --> 00:46:37,319 to dallow and were waiting for us to 1159 00:46:40,430 --> 00:46:39,480 dabble when we landed in the highway 1160 00:46:42,829 --> 00:46:40,440 Island 1161 00:46:46,010 --> 00:46:42,839 and as you recall where did we refuel 1162 00:46:48,770 --> 00:46:46,020 the helicopter uh springerdale Arizona 1163 00:46:50,690 --> 00:46:48,780 because it's not Florida Arizona oh no 1164 00:46:52,970 --> 00:46:50,700 no it was just a matter of a few minutes 1165 00:46:55,370 --> 00:46:52,980 actually 25 1166 00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:55,380 minutes maybe at the max 1167 00:47:01,370 --> 00:46:58,800 uh west of where we were located 1168 00:47:02,990 --> 00:47:01,380 all right I think uh we may pick this up 1169 00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:03,000 another time but I think that'll do us 1170 00:47:06,290 --> 00:47:05,040 for now I really appreciate the time and